Texas Wine and True Crime
We review Texas wines and discuss Texas true crime.
Texas Wine and True Crime
Twenty Wounds And A Locked Door: The Ellen Greenberg Case Revisited
A young teacher, a locked apartment, and twenty wounds that refuse to settle into a single story. We dive into the Ellen Greenberg case with a clear-eyed look at the timeline, the 911 call that primed the response, and how a scene labeled too soon can close doors that should have stayed open. We talk through the concierge logs, the missing hallway footage, and the mechanics of a latch that became the centerpiece of a suicide narrative.
From there, we pull apart the evidence that sparked years of debate: shallow punctures versus a single fatal stab to the heart, bruises in different stages of healing, and medications that complicate judgment but don’t resolve pattern or force. We explore why some see hesitancy marks while others see overreach, and how toxicology, body mechanics, and wound placement can support more than one conclusion. The most telling conflict may be institutional—a medical examiner’s homicide ruling set against law enforcement’s suicide determination—exposing the cost of early certainty and the weight of a mishandled scene.
Along the way, we consider the texts about job stress, the dynamics of a new engagement under pressure, and the optics of removing electronics after cleanup. None of it is definitive; all of it matters. What emerges is less a tidy answer than a hard lesson: when investigators let first words guide the work, families lose faith and truth gets buried under procedure. Listen for the timeline, stay for the evidence, and decide where you land on the locked-room puzzle. If this episode moved you, subscribe, share it with a friend, and leave a review with the one detail that most shaped your view.
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Welcome, all of you wine and true crime lovers. I'm Brandy. And I'm Chris. And this is Texas Wine and True Crime. Thank you for being here today for tonight's episode, The Case of Ellen Greenberg. Hey, Chris.
SPEAKER_00:Hey, Brandy.
SPEAKER_01:We are now um going into the holiday season, which means we have a live show coming up on Friday, December 12th at Horseshoe Ben Cellars Winery, right in Iowa Park, right outside of Wichita Falls, Texas. Excited to be there. The show is from, I believe, six to eight o'clock. This is on December the 12th. So head over to their website. We'll go ahead and post the link in our socials as well. I think I've already done that. Um, grab some tickets and come see us. We're gonna hand out some stickers. Um, and you know.
SPEAKER_00:Did they name ticket prices?
SPEAKER_01:Uh so I do believe they just released them today. Um, but just go, you can search an event in Facebook. I think that's where um the link is. But you can either go to Horseshoe Bend or you can go to Texas One in True Crime. And the links will be there for you. If you have any questions, let us know. All right, Chris. So we are going to get into the case of Ellen Greenberg tonight. Um, as you know, because we watched this together. Um, I was I was very familiar with this case already. Um, this has been an ongoing case in, I would say, I mean, I'm not on Reddit a lot, but I would say it's been pretty hot on Reddit. I think there's a lot of talk around this case because it was classified as a suicide from within actually, they actually said it on site when they saw her body, right? And then got changed to homicide and then back to suicide.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I myself was completely unaware of it. So it was an interesting watch and just interesting tale overall. So um very much so. Very crazy, too. Just ball, I don't, you know, I don't know if you say balls were dropped, but just clearly after um looking at all the evidence that they found afterwards about the failures of the law enforcement and everything like that, it really is a very sad tale.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and I also want to make this point. We have talked about this on other shows before. Um, when someone calls 911, because we're gonna talk about this in a little while, but when someone calls 911 and they say something has happened to someone and they use a specific word around it, that is kind of how police treat it, how fire and rescue would treat something that they're going onto the scene, right? So I think this case is a clear example of someone calling 911, saying something that already is in the minds and influencing the people on the other end of the line, and then police coming and treating the scene just as it was called it. And this can be a huge issue. It is a huge issue in this case. I think this is where um, you know, law enforcement gets in a little bit of hot water when it comes to keeping crime scenes um uh clear of other people and the ability to go in and do your job. So we're gonna talk about that 911 call.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, but I don't um I have no idea how a conversation comes from um, you know, like an EMS from 911 to the police dispatcher and how it's promoted. Um I mean, I don't know. You heard things shots fired, you know, when you're watching a show or something like that, um, or something to go assess. So we really don't know if that was told to the police. Like, you know, he said she stabbed herself, did the MSA, you know, investigate uh stabbing.
SPEAKER_01:You know, yeah, we'll talk about that. Because they're they're yeah, of course they say that and talk about it. I will I imagine that more so matter.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, but I also think too, once the police arrive and they say how engaging he is with them, I believe that's where that seat was planted. Not necessarily not necessarily the phone call, just an opinion.
SPEAKER_01:All right, so this is taking place in Philadelphia. Um, this happens in 2011. Um, again, this is a documentary. There is a documentary now out about Ellen Greenberg. You can go watch it on Hulu. Um, it's three episodes, and it's basically around this case. It's around what her family feels like happened and their opinions about this. And from all accounts, so I don't want to get too much into um, you know, necessarily like their relationship. She was engaged. She had met, I think they got engaged in like June. This happens in January of the following year. So a very short period of time that she is with her boyfriend.
SPEAKER_00:Um they were together a total of three years before. So he proposed to her in June.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, proposed to her in June. Like you said, they had been dating several years, proposed to her, I think after what, like you said, three years of dating.
SPEAKER_00:And yes, by all accounts, too, you would think that they being together that long, uh, you've thoroughly vetted your future mate.
SPEAKER_01:I did think about that, um, because I think that a lot would come out about a person in those years. But then I think about people who are married to people for 20, 30 years and then find out all this stuff about them that they didn't know, right? So I don't know. Um were was he I I we don't what we do know is that there's a lot of speculation that um there may have been some domestic violence in this, but I but I will say, just like in the documentary, the psychiatrist that saw Ellen before her death, the you know, they asked these questions, and they basically said she was happy every time his name was brought up and excited about their future. But we know in the autopsy there's bruises found all over her in different stages of healing, which could could be a continuous, you know, um domestic violence situation going on that nobody knows about. And I mean, we can't say because one person's personality is outgoing and bubbly and cheerful and she tells people things to then not saying anything to anybody because we know that happens.
SPEAKER_00:Well, there I one thing I took from you know the parents, um not saying they're wrong and anything like that, but there seemed to be a very, you know, like the per her friends, and you know, like even her mother said, I guess she, you know, oh she met a nice Jewish boy, he's got a family, he's got this and that, you know, like he's a nice, you know. Perhaps there was pressure to maintain this relationship because they her parents, you know, were happy that she, you know, that's important to some families. They obviously the same religion, and you know, by all accounts a good guy, had a good job, and so maybe there was this pressure in this family stigma that you know that you kind of had to make it work. Like you said, mentioned she didn't mention anything to the psychiatrist about there being any problems or anything like that, but maybe just because she didn't tell him doesn't mean it wasn't happening.
SPEAKER_01:That's right. I mean, just because I mean, we know that there are some people who don't disclose this kind of information because one, they're shameful, they don't want people to think that they've actually put up with this, right? Um, if this was going on. And so, you know, I do believe her parents believe that there was a domestic violence situation in her in this.
SPEAKER_00:And her parents found this psychiatrist for her, correct?
SPEAKER_01:I'm not really sure.
SPEAKER_00:I thought I heard that he did say something. So who knows? I mean, uh that could be I mean, you never know. There, um, the fact that your family found a person on his family friend, who knows, but just also to her not being totally honest with that um in that situation, so her parents wouldn't find out.
SPEAKER_01:You know, I don't know, and maybe not knowing really like like client, you know, doctor privilege, and that you know, the psychiatrist does not disclose, you know, certain things to certain people. I mean, she's very young at the I mean, she's 27 when she dies. So, you know, she's in her 20s going through this relationship.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, we just uh as a psychiatrist, if you somebody's um being harmed by someone, that's right, they may have to report that.
SPEAKER_01:Um I don't know about your comments around that.
SPEAKER_00:If you're committing a crime, yes, they can't if you're gonna reveal to your psychiatrist, you committed a crime or something like that. But it may, I don't know about domestic violence too. Because you you can't if somebody is telling you this and you see with some signs or something like that too, um, you might be under some sort of obligation. It's no different if you took your child perhaps to um see somebody in the I mean, heck, uh a teacher can report you to the police if they see bruising on your child. So I don't know. I mean, I'm just saying like if she was in there saying he's beating me this and that, or if anything was noticed, but not about him not being nice to her, but I mean like if there was were threats, you know, that she was expressing that were made to her by him. I don't know. Well, we know that he may look up and grok here.
SPEAKER_01:No, we we know that nothing, we know that she didn't tell anybody anything. Okay, here's that's what we do know. We do know that if that was going on in that relationship, nobody knew. Not her mother, not her best friends, she didn't not her psychiatrist, she didn't disclose it to anyone. But Chris, remember, Eric and Lyle Menendez confessed to their their psychiatrist or therapist, and they were caught because they were recorded. You know, that a woman overheard them talking about it, and so he did not go to police at first. So I don't think it's necessarily a law. There is some sort of privilege. Again, I'm not an attorney, I don't know all the laws around it. No, it's um but I don't think they have to, and I think it's different in every state.
SPEAKER_00:Grox, uh Grox tells me that they're generally not required to report to metabolized adults. Uh however, child abuse and elder abuse, yes, but some states do um um make it mandatory to only six.
SPEAKER_01:Not New York. Yeah, all the states are different.
SPEAKER_00:All the states are different, not Pennsylvania.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, so at this time they are engaged. She's 27 years old. We know that they are they've been together for several years, newly engaged. Um, she had she had found her wedding dress, you know. Um, there was some speculation of her, like towards the end before she dies, of that she wasn't wearing her engagement ring. Some people found that a little unusual. Um, I mean, it was a beautiful ring. And so people would sometimes ask, and I, you know, I don't know. I I think if you know someone and you notice these things about them, you know, hindsight of now looking forward now that she's no longer here, and to be able to kind of dissect this. Again, he, you know, the boyfriend, she's never come out, she never came out and said that anything like this was going on. So this is going to be January of 2011. Um, we know leading up to this, Chris, she was very unhappy with her job. At least that's what the text messages is and her, her uh her voicing her opinion to her parents, which is why they got her the psychiatrist. According to the documentary, they got the psychiatrist because the dad said we didn't want her to lose her job and we wanted her to get the help, right? So, how can I do these things and help her?
SPEAKER_00:Because she was saying she was stressed because of work.
SPEAKER_01:That's right. Now, people who she worked with, you know, would say that she was a, you know, she's a new teacher. Sometimes it can feel very stressful. She would tell her friends the same thing. I don't like my job. I'm ready to quit. She would even reach out to her boyfriend. Um, the one thing I did notice, I and I told you this once. Um, we saw the text messages in the documentary. When she went to him, I feel like when she would say things like, Hey, like I think at one point she even said, Hey, would you be mad if I quit my job? Or she says something along the lines of like, Hey, I don't know if I can take this anymore. And he says to her, Come on now, Ellie, you're not a quitter. And then he would say things like, Oh, wait, halfway through the school year. And I told you from a female perspective, that is not supportive. The, the one, the number one thing, because to me, those are very selfish answers. That's about, I don't know if he's worried about her not being able to support herself or him having to help support her, or the burden would be on him. I don't know. But in those moments, I did not find that his response was supportive, especially not supported from a female perspective. They're not married yet.
SPEAKER_00:I know, I'm just saying, but not supportive from a female perspective. So you can't necessarily say that.
SPEAKER_01:I can say that I would want you to be happy whatever you talk about.
SPEAKER_00:I know I'm saying, but if he's talking, if he's talking to a friend and he says, he's not.
SPEAKER_01:I'm talking about his responses to her.
SPEAKER_00:I understand.
SPEAKER_01:Let's stay on what we're talking. He knows we don't know what he said to friends. We know what he said to her.
SPEAKER_00:I know.
SPEAKER_01:And my point is I would think that a newly engaged couple starting their lives, you know, you haven't been married 25 years, and she's been at this job 25 years, and now she wants to go do something completely different. This is a girl in her 20s who tried teaching. Maybe it's not her jam. She wants to try something else.
SPEAKER_00:I think um I found his responses a little I find a response maybe stating quitting in the middle of the year. You're a teacher. It's not easy to get, you know, you're teaching six, five, and six-year-olds. Um I don't know. It could have been genuinely um that thought giving up in the middle of the year, giving up on the students. I don't know.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, but nonetheless, it's nothing to you sound like you're making excuses for his answers. I'm saying for a female.
SPEAKER_00:I think there's far more things in this that might indicate that he would be responsible versus just the text message.
SPEAKER_01:I'm just talking about his response to her around her not being happy with her job. That's what I'm talking about. I'm talking about just his Chris. He doesn't respond like this once. He does it three times in three different kinds of ways that to me are never like, I'm so sorry, you're unhappy. Like, hey, you know what? You gave it a try. It's not for you. We're starting our lives. Like, let's go find something else. Though I I think that people, um, you know, I I it's it's kind of sad because I do think that maybe that's what she was looking for. And for her to say, Well, you know, would you be mad if I quit? Like, that's how bad she wanted out. Like, and and for someone to be her partner or future partner to not be able to like see a little bit of where she's coming from, that was a little bothersome for me at this age and this stage in the relationship. Okay, so let's move on.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, we should move on.
SPEAKER_01:She is um, so let's talk about um, okay, her friends again, leading up to her death, there were some changes in her. We don't know if that had to do with her relationship. Again, she didn't disclose any of the that private information. We don't know if it was all the job and a relationship was fine, and she just wanted out, and that and that was making her unhappy. But there were people who said, like, she just wasn't herself, kind of leading up to um what happens in January of 2011. So, Chris, what we do know is there are cameras all over the Venice lofts where they are living in Philadelphia. This is an area where there's a concierge at the front desk 24-7. Um, you have people going in and out. There's cameras everywhere, except there were none in the hallways. Um, the Venice Lofts have come out and said that they did not have them um set up in the hallways. But based on information with the cameras, the key cards, and um the phone call to 911, his interaction with the front desk, this is what we have heard from police that doing the investigation on this side of it with him has proved that he could not have done this. Okay. So they have come out and said that that key cards, video, timeline, entrance, things that are caught on camera and things they've seen, whatever those things are, I don't really know. But I do know that they have come out and said that there was um, I would just call it a mild investigation into him. And um, because again, if it's not classified one way, they don't investigate it a different way. So very short time that they had classified this as a homicide. But an hour goes by. He goes to the gym, he goes back to the apartment, it's locked. He goes down to concierge, tells concierge he looks a little agitated, tell concierge that he's trying to get in the door, that Ellie Ellen is in there, that she's not opening the door. She's he said he comes, he goes back upstairs, comes back down, looks even more irritated that he can't get in. And then he just basically says, I'm gonna kick the, you know, the FN door down. Okay. We know that this was about an hour. I don't want to get in a specific timeline. We know from the time he left the gym in his apartment comp in his apartment complex and going back and forth from the apartment, downstairs, up there, looking frantic. Neighbors even opened their door, saw him banging on the door, screaming. He's texting her, What are you doing? Open the door. Why aren't you opening the door? You know, what's going on? Visibly upset, visibly agitated, and finally he breaks open the door. Okay. But what do we know? We know that the lock on the inside was was locked, right? What do you call that lock, Chris? Is it like a what's the best way to describe that? Like a hotel lock, so people can kind of think of the latch.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's not called that, but I don't know.
SPEAKER_01:No, I know it's not called that, but it's a latched lock.
SPEAKER_00:It latches, like an inside latch, like uh not a deadbolt, but um and not a chain, but like little bar bar slide bar lock.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, maybe so he just opens it, right? Kicks it, I don't know if he kicks it down or pushes, I don't know, but he gets it open, right? So he calls 911. Now he calls 911 and says, Hey, so here's the first thing because there's a lot of controversy around this time moment call. And I have always said, you don't know what you're gonna do in those moments that you're finding someone like this and what you're gonna say, how you're gonna say it. There was so much, I mean, the Darley Rooter 911 call, they have picked that apart. I think they have picked this one apart. Um, but the one thing that stuck out to me, and by the way, I've watched this documentary a few times because I wanted to hear this 911 call a few times. And I think the first thing that stuck out to me was like giving his timeline of what he's doing. To me, that's kind of unusual. If you are calling 911 because someone is unresponsive, right? Because at this point, he doesn't say she stabbed herself. She he says, you know, like she's on the ground, like she's not breathing or unresp. She he says something along those lines, okay? But he starts giving his timeline. Well, I was here, and then I came up here, and then I went back down there, and then I came here. I found that very unusual. That is not the first thing I'm thinking of when I find someone dead on the floor, or at least unresponsive on the floor, okay? And then the second part of this is they're asking him, is she breathing? Can you, you know, can you open her shirt? Give her CPR, right? And he talks about the zipper, which she did. She had like a zipper jacket on. And, you know, and she's leaning up, she's found in the kitchen, leaned up against the cabinet. So, you know, like you're sitting on the ground and your head's on a cabinet and your legs are kind of sprawled out. So he then says, Oh my gosh, she has she has stabbed herself, or oh my gosh, I see blood. She has she has stabbed herself. I found that very unusual. If I find someone with a stab wound sticking out of their chest, the first instinct is not for me to think they did it to themselves. Now, he could have thought she did this to herself. If he if there is no lying from him, if everything he has said up to this point is the truth, right? Because he tells police eventually, Chris, she had no suicidal tendencies. If you want police to think she committed suicide, wouldn't you say that she had suicidal tendencies? So there's some things about him that I'm like, okay, he's being honest. I don't think he is lying about that. I think he's being honest about that. So if he knows that he didn't do this and he knows that there was no one else in that apartment but her, and that door is latched, then I can understand how his first reaction is going to be, she did this to herself.
SPEAKER_00:I think the mere fact that the door, according to him, was locked from the inside.
SPEAKER_01:It was.
SPEAKER_00:So yeah. They did a test, Chris. But no, no, no, no. But hold on. I'm sure you could. I'm sure you get a wire, we even talk about that too. But I'm just saying maybe it's not responsible. That's an unusual thing to have to break into your own house that can only be unlocked from the inside if you were to come into a situation. Like, what would you think? You're near an apartment, it's not like somebody just crawled out the window and disappeared. Different in a house, of course, that you might think somebody had snuck in. One way in this place and one way out. So naturally, you could think she's somehow stabbed herself because, like you said, who is thinking that initially that somebody would go to all the trouble to sit there and finagle a lock from the outside outside or leaving for this hour of a time, you know. So I mean I'm just saying, and and the whole notion of well, the locks are known to lock themselves, you know, if you close slam the door too hard, it's gonna swing around and catch it. You know, I mean, not once again, I'm just saying that's a possibility too, but I don't know. I mean, let's just say in this world where he's totally innocent and was to come into that situation, exactly. That would be something you might question. How on earth can somebody get inside here? How would this happen? Did she do this to herself? I think she did it herself, you know. Or did he she have these suicidal audiations and he's uh they're arguing and he tells her, Why don't you just fucking kill yourself? You know? I don't know. Might push her over the edge.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So, but I'm just saying, like, yeah, sure, there's some ways. I I guarantee I could probably close a lock from the outside if I had the proper tool or whatever. So there's no video in the hallway to indicate that he's sitting there doing that.
SPEAKER_01:So gosh, what that video in the hallway would have probably made, you know, why? Because we wouldn't know if anybody entered, right? And left. And what is what is in the timeline around the city?
SPEAKER_00:What is the point of um you know, because he had his key to the apartment, he just couldn't open and obviously he knew his latch to be inside.
SPEAKER_01:Maybe that's I mean, like I mean, he was only gone from from the time we know he enters the gym with the card. We he was only gone for about five years.
SPEAKER_00:But I mean, his going back and forth to the uh front, like as a murderer, uh, I don't know what he stood to gain from that.
SPEAKER_01:Time.
SPEAKER_00:Um time that he's away, or time to let her die, or is she dead already?
SPEAKER_01:You don't murder someone and immediately call 911 because guess what? They're gonna be warm to the touch. So they're gonna know this just happened. So they're not gonna believe you've been gone for an hour. So there is a lot of thought that has to go into some of this, and people do it all the time. It's not like it's uncommon to stage a scene, right? And just stage a timeline. But the fact is, is we know that he has not been held responsible for this.
SPEAKER_00:No, I'm saying he had all the time before he went to the gym to stage the scene.
SPEAKER_01:We don't know what happened, though.
SPEAKER_00:I know, I'm just saying he had all that time. What is the point of him um once again, if he's well, we know her abdomen was warm.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, we know that she wasn't like ice cold.
SPEAKER_00:So Oh, I know, I'm just saying, but before he went to the gym, had all that time, what would be the purpose of um of waiting the duration of time afterwards, though, like playing the game of going downstairs, back upstairs, downstairs, upstairs. I'm just gonna break the door down. What did he stand again by her being a scene?
SPEAKER_01:An absolute 100% scene that she has locked him out, he's not able to get in. He is texting her that he's wants her to open the door. She's not receiving the door.
SPEAKER_00:I know, but it but at this stage, but he's the door's cracked open. Okay, he's able to unlock the door, he can't open it all the way. Nobody's answering, right? According to him, he's calling through the cracked door.
SPEAKER_01:Right, and there's text message, he's not responding. That's right.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so like is he um No, does he think she's just ignoring him?
SPEAKER_01:If she's alive and he didn't do this, yes.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I know, but I'm just saying, like, how long do you wait before you decide you're just gonna break the door down? I don't know. I'm just riffing here.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, it just Well, I guess maybe well, and I I don't know. I mean, again, we can speculate all we want, but what we know is what we know. And what we know is that he left the apartment about 4:50, about 10 to 5. He's gone for about 45 minutes. He goes back, and this is when this whole thing like goes back and forth, right? Like he can't get in, you know. So from the time he went to the gym to the time that I think he broke the door down, I think, Chris, we're talking like an hour to an hour and 20 minute timeline of some sort. Okay.
SPEAKER_00:Well, like for me, I think you you said we know what we know, and and I think what the things that we for sure know is that you know, upon him calling the 9-1, having the police show up, that that's where the real additional crime starts. Uh with um, and I don't mean crime as a criminal, but just criminal in the fact of the way they handled the scene.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and I so the word suicide was brought up very early on, right? So when he calls 911 and he sees, you know, she has a blade sticking out of her heart, right? There is there's no other knives sticking in her but a blade in her heart. And that's when he says, you know, she stabbed herself, and they said, Well, how do you you know there's blood, and they they said, Okay, don't touch her. There's police on the way. Police arrive, and yes, there was conversation that she had done this to herself.
SPEAKER_00:I know I I that's that's my point too about somebody coming in and having to break the door into their own house that's locked from the inside. I think that's why he can get away with saying that. You know what I mean? Like that makes somewhat some sense, I think, is why he's saying that, though, because he had to break into this house, and the only means to get in there, he's you know, obviously point out, you can see they walk in and see the way the lock is like, oh well, how do you you know even here the key? We can't, there's no secret tool to get this thing open from the outside. So I think that's why initially police can um accept that his statement, like she must have done this to herself. How else could somebody get in here? You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_01:Well, um appreciate that a comment about him being able to, yes, I had to break my own door down. This is how I found her, you know, she she did this to yourself, but but Chris, he is not too the one determining this, okay? And this is the problem with this.
SPEAKER_00:Not determining planning the that idea, planning the idea, okay.
SPEAKER_01:And it couldn't, it doesn't even just have to be an idea, it could be an absolute 100% fact. The fact is that he is not in prison for this crime, he was never charged with anything, and this is classified as a suicide. Her pay her family does not believe that they have gone to multiple lengths to hold him accountable for this. I don't know the truth, right? We don't know, but what we know is fact, and the fact is, police decided right then and there that this was a suicide. Not because of their investigation, but because of what he was saying and what came out of his mouth and just made sense. It it's a little frustrating.
SPEAKER_00:That's why I say that's the one true thing that we do know that's that's true. What's gone wrong in this case, what's gone wrong in her life is that she was not well represented by the law enforcement.
SPEAKER_01:That's yeah, um they could there could have just been a little bit better job of seat.
SPEAKER_00:So, you know, I that's uh you know, according to the documentary, uh that's why there was no crime scene investigators called the night of, but merely a um you know the coroner's office to come and take the body.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um but even they commented that they typically nothing is done, um nothing's moved. It's you know, the court the medical examiner is the one who's going to be touching the Body when they come there. And they said even when they got there, things had been moved and a lot of people, a lot of foot traffic. It wasn't a it wasn't close off because I don't even know. Like, I mean, it seems like anything you walk in, you see somebody that's shot themselves or got a shotgun there, you don't know that it's not a crime scene until you know it's not a crime scene. So I think you kind of have to treat it like that. They didn't really treat it like that at all.
SPEAKER_01:No, they didn't.
SPEAKER_00:And that's where they failed.
SPEAKER_01:Um, but then it gets a little bit worse. The uncle of her boyfriend um is a prominent judge in Philadelphia, and him and another man call the manager of the lofts, and they want to come and get some things. So she called the manager calls police and says, like, hey, can I do this? And they basically tell her to call uh and hire a crime scene cleanup crew before allowing these men to come in.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I mean I think from the standpoint that they just didn't um want the family to they were trying to not have the family see that. He was family, you know, not in a uh um I mean they weren't married yet, but how they were presenting themselves. So I thought about this too. And so, you know, here's my conspiracy theory that um well let's say why they're there. Yes.
SPEAKER_01:The uncle and the other man come in and they take Ellen's electronics.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, her cell phone and laptop at the time.
SPEAKER_01:Not her uncle, the boyfriend's uncle. I just want to make that clear.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, yes. Okay. So um a little strange. Let's say, like I said, this world, he's not responsible. Uncle, uh prominent attorney and judge. They know he's not responsible. He also knows the legal system and how things can get twisted and manipulated. So it could be possible that they're trying to just, you know, you know, obviously he's met with him, you know, could have even conferred with him, you know, pretty quickly after this. What are we gonna do? Um are there any messages between you guys arguing, this and that? So trying to clear those things just for the mere fact to just save his butt as an innocent person who shouldn't have to, you know, perhaps be erroneously charged with something.
SPEAKER_01:So I'm gonna kind of take devil's advocate on that. And I'm gonna say that if I got in an argument with you and I didn't murder you and you were dead, and so and I think you did the same thing.
SPEAKER_00:I'm talking about there could have been a whole mess of stuff going on.
SPEAKER_01:I wouldn't have anything to hide though. If I know I'm innocent.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I'll tell you what.
SPEAKER_01:If I'm not so you're saying the the so you're saying you break the law, you go in and you take electronics of the of the deceased.
SPEAKER_00:Someone They weren't breaking the law. They let the cops left that stuff there. They didn't take anything as evidence because they didn't treat it like a crime scene. They actually were not breaking the law.
SPEAKER_01:So well, lucky for them.
SPEAKER_00:I know that's what I'm saying, but I'm just saying. This guy is this guy is an attorney, you know. Um the the last thing you want to do, you don't ever go talk to the police. You don't go show up at the police department to go, even if you're even if you're innocent, you go show up with an at without an attorney. That's right. If you're being accused of some crime potentially. So I mean, you know, just just saying, like, who knows? They could have been some, and yes, if you had a a history of all these nasty text messages between you and me.
SPEAKER_01:But we don't know what was on there.
SPEAKER_00:We don't, but I'm saying if, in fact, this had been a long history of this shit not going right, emails, who the hell knows? And but you are innocent, you damn sure don't want the cops to see that if you come home and you're found stabbed in the kitchen. I wouldn't want that. Even if I was on call working all night and came home and this happened, because I'd be the first person they'd be looking at. You know what I mean? So I don't know. I mean, just I'm just saying.
SPEAKER_01:I think it's a little weird to do that within like a four.
SPEAKER_00:There is no doubt it's weird, and I also think there's no doubt his uncle was trying to protect his ass for something. So there is that that's that's what's not weird, that clearly his ass was being protected for some reason. It could have been for to not be seen as a suspect, or because he legitimately would be a suspect.
SPEAKER_01:Well, we know, well, we don't know, but we know that they took it um that that when it was ruled a suicide and then ruled a homicide by the coroner's office, okay, and then during this time that is ruled a homicide. This is when like her service is taking place. What is it? I think you heard Jewish, it's like Shiva. I don't know if I have that right.
SPEAKER_00:But they, you know, that is the period of time after the funeral that people come and sit with the family to keep their minds off.
SPEAKER_01:Family's talking at this point because now they realize this has been classified as a homicide. Well, who was there with her? Her boyfriend. And so now there's conversation and he's there in attendance. And even her side of the family was telling him, you know, they're gonna question you. Like they're gonna come and ask you some questions.
SPEAKER_00:And they did question him.
SPEAKER_01:They did question him. And you know, and that's the thing. It's like, I don't want to disregard the fact that they did question him. And but I will say that when it was classified as a suicide, they're going to handle it different than a homicide. Now they have now they want to go to the crime scene. What did they have? They have a cleaned up crime scene, they have all the knives that were put in the dishwasher by this crime scene unit. Um, and one thing I think they said was that they did not find his DNA on the handle of the knife in her heart. I think that was, I mean, I've read I have read that. I don't know who did that investigation work, whether, I mean, again, you take his fingerprints and then you try to match him. I don't know when that happened and like how long that was sitting in evidence and all of that, but we that is one thing they have come out and said is that his DNA was not found on um the handle of that knife. So you have her now being buried, you have this change from suicide to homicide, you have the family thinking her close friends going, she would never do this to herself. She, even if she was on anxiety medicine and seeing a psychiatrist and maybe not the happiest with her life at the moment, you know, she was looking forward to things.
SPEAKER_00:And I think the one woman made a great statement that it's very typical for family members and friends to never accept the fact that somebody would kill themselves. So true. And they will say there's no way that person would do it. And so true.
SPEAKER_01:Um Well, they think like you don't, you know, it's always like, well, they had plans, right? But like she said in the documentary, and it's so true, because we we, you know, there's suicide cases we've looked at, and I've I've talked to family members who think it wasn't suicide, but was classified as suicide. And the fact is, is like you can make that decision in a split second and and to and and and do that to yourself, right? And make that and even if you maybe there's a part of you that doesn't even want to die. So you can make that decision and I mean that's what I think is a very instinctive thing to most of the time.
SPEAKER_00:I believe they think that's the case. That's why they always say, like, when they why would this person have ordered food? Why would they have just bought a brand new car? You know, yeah. Who knows? They could have been trying that last-ditch effort to make them change their mind.
SPEAKER_01:And yeah, it could, I mean, we don't know. I mean, it's we should not be trying to get in the heads of this because our mind and our our human nature and our reaction to things, how we handle setbacks. I mean, it all goes into play on how we handle ourselves um and overcoming things. But one thing I want to talk about are the her wounds, right? So she had 20 stab wounds um in the front and in the back.
SPEAKER_00:Now some of the things If you look at all these stab wounds, too, and I don't think you notice this, but I noticed that a lot that none of them looked very deep. Okay, they look like pokes.
SPEAKER_01:Some of them.
SPEAKER_00:A lot of them. The one knife sticking out of the heart did not look like a poke because the knife was stuck in the heart. But a lot of the ones on the back of the head and all the things like that, to me, look like somebody was just sticking somebody with a knife, not stabbing them with a knife. So 'cause I think they say stab wounds. They're to me, like I said, a lot of them, they don't look like they're I mean, unless the tissue, I don't know if after rigor mortis sets in, it closes up, you don't see, but it looked like a lot of my opinion, a lot of these kind of, you know, like we're you're putting the tip, not the very tip, but you know, not like the whole deep, you know. This was a steak knife that they found, or at least that was, I'm guess they're assuming that all the cuts were from the steak knife, correct?
SPEAKER_01:There were multiple knives actually used. Used? Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. So I did not was not aware of that. I thought it was just that one. Another one, maybe that was the finishing.
SPEAKER_01:I don't believe that only one knife was used. Maybe it's there were multiple knives that were in the sink. I do believe blood on multiple knives.
SPEAKER_00:That's what I couldn't ascertain after that. I mean, I could be wrong about that, but I'm just saying I know that was the finished one. But anyways, I'm just saying it looks like to me, some of a lot a lot of those look like hesitancy. Like, I don't know. Like I said, we don't know her state. We don't know if it's a a bit of mania, mania, sorry, manic. Um obviously leading up to a lot of this stuff. I mean, you know, I don't know. There's um there's there's people that you can probably predict that they're gonna, you know, that you can recognize and try to get them some help. And there's people out there that are, you know, trying to get some help that people will say, like, oh well, that seemed perfectly normal to me.
SPEAKER_01:That's what I'm saying. And and I and listen, it's very hard to accept, you know, but I but but what I want to say about the wounds is I don't know if I'm stabbing myself, because I tried this. I got a knife that looked very similar to one of the knives that was that was in the sink, and I tried putting my hand behind my back, right, or above my shoulder to see how that would work. It was a little uncomfortable. And here's the thing.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I got I heard the same thing. I tried it. I tried it.
SPEAKER_01:I'm stabbing myself though. Why the hell am I going in my back?
SPEAKER_00:I don't know.
SPEAKER_01:Why the hell aren't I just puncturing myself in my chest over and over and over again? What in the hell am I gonna do back there?
SPEAKER_00:Well, you know that you know there are um But your heart is here.
SPEAKER_01:She's stabbed in the heart and left there.
SPEAKER_00:But lots of bones. There's a lot. Not everybody knows exactly where your heart is, you know. So who knows? You have to actually to take a knife and puncture through somebody's breastplate to get to the heart takes a lot of force. Exactly. And you know what else to a lot of knives aren't really well made and have a strong chance of breaking on that bone. So as they're poking, poking, poking, poking, poking, poking, poking, poking, poking, poking, then that final one goes through, you know.
SPEAKER_01:Right. So why go to the back?
SPEAKER_00:Maybe they started with the back. I don't know. Maybe they're trying to stab them through the back of the back.
SPEAKER_01:I always think of stab. I'm not even kidding. Like, we think of weird things. That is that is the first thing I thought of. Stabbed in the back and my heart is broken, or a shattered heart. I'm not even kidding. Like to me, there is some symbolism to this. Come on, man. You're saying that, but I'm trying to rationalize why, if I'm trying to get rid of myself, why am I messing with the back? Why am I making Chris? It makes no sense. It makes absolutely zero sense, in my opinion. If you are trying to kill yourself, why are you gonna do that?
SPEAKER_00:All of the all those wounds up are high. Like around her.
SPEAKER_01:Well, that doesn't matter.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, but you're saying it's uncomfortable. Maybe it's not uncomfortable for her. We're we're old people. It's hard for us to do that move now. You know, she's young and vibrant, she's got limberness in her joints.
SPEAKER_01:The ultimate. But you're in pain. I mean, there's gotta be some level of uncomfortableness with these stab wounds. And now she's got 20 of them. I'm just saying, it seems a little strange to start whether you started.
SPEAKER_00:What if she took all I mean, I have no idea what toxicology was. We don't even really know, but I mean, she was taking clonapin and um Ambien. And Ambien. And you know, people have done some weird shit on Ambien. I totally and also clonopin, too. Totally. And combining the two. And I don't even know what the level of clonopin or ambient was in her system. That you know, that you can clonopin makes you very loopy. Obviously, Ambien just puts your ass to sleep, but who knows? Maybe she took a whole mess of those. Listen, I'm just I'm throwing this because nobody knows anything, so we can throw it in.
SPEAKER_01:Well, and and I think I I want everybody to know, like, there's no we are we are we are purposely doing both sides of this because this is what this is the reality of this case. You have Sam's family who believes he is innocent, if they do believe that, right, and have supported.
SPEAKER_00:No, his family, his family knows better just to keep their mouths shut. If you watch it, if you if you watch the it's a it's a great documentary. It is it's definitely all about her.
SPEAKER_01:It's you know her parents are on their speaking, right? We don't know.
SPEAKER_00:But I'm saying it's all about her, and you hear about you know, it's it's a slant his game. If anybody, like I said, the per the people that they know that did wrong for sure is the Philadelphia police force. Yeah. So in my opinion, and watching this, because they really didn't give her a fair day to determine what happened. Um, you know, and once again, like I said by him not speaking out, you know, I think to me, is speaks more volumes than uh, you know, creepy Scott Peterson, who's doing interviews and all this stuff like that, too. And he's the actual murderer. I think they know better that, you know, if in fact he is innocent, he it's not he's never going to change anybody's mind. That's right.
SPEAKER_01:His family isn't, you know, like I said, I mean, I know I can I mean he said his family, I mean, there were friends who said he was devastated by this. And I mean, if be his neighbors said he was visibly shaken and very upset in the hallway that this had just happened. I mean, we we're not here, we're we're here to talk about the controversy around this case because there's a lot of controversy.
SPEAKER_00:Because here's the thing, too. He could have ended up not wanting to marry her, he could have been frustrated by her quitting her job or wanting to quit and realized, like, great, I don't want to be with somebody like that that's a quitter and they don't want to support themselves. He could have told her, knowing her state of mind, like, I don't want to be with you. He could have been a real ugly, nasty, bastard piece of shit. But I mean, it also didn't make him murder, and she could have done this. And you know, I mean, listen, the guy's remarried, been remarried for quite some time, right? You know, I mean, I can't remember how long, but I do know he's remarried.
SPEAKER_01:But you know, I thought that was well they never married. Not remarried.
SPEAKER_00:You're right. He married somebody. So you also have to look at this per second, like what kind of a creepy girl is gonna be trying to marry some guy who suspected of murdering. He was never a suspect, really. You know what I mean? So, you know, does he was he the guy that just got away with it and he's just living his life like woo, you know?
SPEAKER_01:And I mean, I'm well but Buster Murdah, Burst Buster Murdaw went on with his life, got a girlfriend, you know, sat with him in court. I mean, who knows? Okay, we don't. There's there's people who marry people that are in prison, and and it's yeah, the Murdaws. You know, he went on and had a relationship. He was supposedly uh responsible for someone's murder. His name was flying around town. Um, the boy they found on the road. That's who I'm talking about. I mean, but I'm saying there was a stigma around him too. That doesn't mean people are gonna be in relationships with him. I mean, I think there's even somebody different. There's somebody dating Casey Anthony, okay?
SPEAKER_00:So I mean that is a speculation, if you want to say, because there's no evidence that he was even nearly. You're right.
SPEAKER_01:There were just like 12 witnesses and uh 12 witnesses that overheard people talking. But you know, I mean, usually I always say like people talk. Oh yeah, but when you kind of hear it more than five or six times, and there might be some truth to it.
SPEAKER_00:All right, so high school kids.
SPEAKER_01:All right, so let's talk about um so now we've got the classification to the murder, and then it's now then officially ruled again a suicide. Now, the one thing about this is the medical examiner's office and the police completely clash on this, okay? And this is where a lot of people feel like was there some sort of cover-up of sorts because of family involvement with him? Um, and did they really just kind of want to wash their hands of this and didn't want to look like they were wrong? I mean, they called it a suicide in the first 45 minutes of the year.
SPEAKER_00:I don't think it had anything to do with the family. I think it was the mere fact they had to cover it up because they realized they really screwed this up from the get-go.
SPEAKER_01:I would agree with that.
SPEAKER_00:And um, that's a notorious corrupt police force. Uh that's, you know, no different than new some of the New York. I mean, hell, there's corruption all places. Texas.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, we could talk about a few.
SPEAKER_00:So, no, I think them wanting to uh make it a suicide when they realized there is listen, if the man hops, they had no evidence against him. I mean, we're ever gonna make a case against him whatsoever. You know, it's a shame that they just gave up and raised white flag, but that's why it fared much better for them because they never ever would have had jack shit on him whatsoever.
SPEAKER_01:Well, we um I don't know if we we talked about this earlier, but I did want to point out that police did ask him about you know the relationship, the um uh her suicide, how how how was she doing, you know, he told them she was seeing a psychiatrist, he told them she was on medication. He, you know, he but he did say, you know, she never showed any signs of that, which that could be absolutely true, right? And then, like, like the lady said on the documentary, these things just happen and they can happen in a moment's notice. And you know, when you get tragic, not what do you call it, like trauma, and trauma can come in all forms, right? And you get bad news, or you someone you love dies. I mean, look at the guy in the Dallas Cowboys, right? Just it can in an instant, you can your mind can just shift and you want to end it all. And so, you know, based on his how he had to get in the house, you know, the apartment. Um, I mean, as a parent, I look at her parents and I can understand because again, I think the 20 stab wounds is a little unusual. Now, if I had 20 stab wounds in the front and, you know, my the knife's in my chest, I can't get in my door. I mean, I can absolutely 100% see why they classified this as a suicide. Okay. It's got part of his story, part of what they see at the scene. They came to the conclusion it was it was not the best thing to do, it wasn't the right thing to do. They should have done a thorough investigation, but they didn't.
SPEAKER_00:I'm sure they made a big a big call based on the fact of how I think initially nobody ever investigated anything, really. But initially, like I said, I still stand by the fact that the door was locked from the inside. And those aren't that's not some lock that you can unlock from the outside. You know what I mean? Like if that thing is bolted, right?
SPEAKER_01:So Well, that's that's what it's meant to do, right? That somebody can't open the door and then unlatch it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, but there's ways that people can open latches. I'm just saying that's like very challenging. So I could see where somebody initially coming up, like, how in the hell would somebody get in here? And how would he be able to, you know, and said, I don't know. I've never risked that in some hotel room to see if I could actually, I guess you could have to next time we're in a hotel room. Uh you can you could be the one outside and I'll stand inside.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. Watch out, I might call it in.
SPEAKER_00:No, I'm just saying, like, uh, but just to see, but I mean, yeah, I don't know. You know, I mean it's uh I like I said everything is speculation. I think that's why the big focus to me was just the fact of just how they botched, at least for me, the main focus is obviously she's deceased. Right. But to me, the one thing I think, you know, we've obviously can focus in, but all uh the blame of why this, you know, the big the biggest portion of the blame could be on the police force and all the investigators.
SPEAKER_01:Um absolutely because there was nothing lack thereof. Yeah, because there was nothing preventing them from investigating him, right? Or you know, I mean, there's 20 stab wounds. If we had, if she was, if she had, you know, taken her life in a different way, I don't know if we would be sitting here talking about this.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I I I mean honestly. I think it's because of the way she's I didn't prepare for that that portion to even consider, but I was thinking that last night, looking like a lot of the stab wounds to me look like a lot of pokes.
SPEAKER_01:Sure, they said that I think in the documentary on something. I don't know what they call that those kinds of wounds, but it's basically like hesitancy, like you said, like they'll do it and then maybe it hurts.
SPEAKER_00:Because like if you really like to me, and you're gonna hate to say it, but it it looks like how a like it looks way different than if a man was stabbing somebody like the way it's kind of done, and even just with the heart, and like what a weird way to do like it looks like how a girl would do it. You mean like just like why would a guy not just go in there and cut her throat? What's the point? Or you know, or like cut her wrists.
SPEAKER_01:No, that's not right. Who knows? No, you're not right. You stab someone and it's called overkill, it's called the heat of passion.
SPEAKER_00:But I'm saying a lot That's how you get 20 stab wounds, but they're not all stab wounds, though, Brandy. That's what I'm saying.
SPEAKER_01:They are considered 20 stab wounds, just because they're I know they're six inches deep doesn't mean it's not a stab wound.
SPEAKER_00:A quarter inch deep is not a stab, though, and there's no man that's gonna be poking you a quarter inch, j jab it, jab it, jab it, jab it. That's what a lot of them look like. Somebody's trying to jab from the back and trying to can't get their arm all the way cocked back there. Yeah, and they're kind of making it halfway, and then finally you're over there in the chest, you're trying to get through your chest plate, and you can't freaking do it, and finally you get lucky and get through one of the ribs, and it actually pierces and goes through. When I'm looking at those, that's what I'm thinking, you know, like versus, you know, like I They are very centered.
SPEAKER_01:Like if you look at her pictures of the of the coroner, even in the back, they're all right in the middle, very centered, and then the front, they're all kind of in the middle and they're centered.
SPEAKER_00:And so it's crazy. Like I said, it's crazy as it sounds, and crazy stuff happens. Because you're like last night, what'd you think? Well, then you know, I was actually thinking about all day because I was actually looking at a lot of stuff too, and thinking, you know, those are some of the weird things that really stood out to me. Yeah, you know, I d I know we always talk about people's behavior after things happen, you know, and it's always, you know, like I said, Darley Radier and blah blah blah, you know, and so I just I don't know. Traumatic situations. Oh my gosh, you never know how people are gonna react.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, we have no idea. And like I said, he is not in in I and I think friends and family can, you know, continued to be in contact with him on some level. Of you know, he was said he was devastated by what happened to her, and it was very sad, you know.
SPEAKER_00:What time of day is she last accounted for that day?
SPEAKER_01:Um, so I think he said she came home um around three or maybe a little earlier.
SPEAKER_00:And they did have an argument that day.
SPEAKER_01:I I I don't remember exactly what he said, but I do believe that there, yes, like there he knew she was home. Do you know what I mean? Um, so yeah, I don't know. I mean, we don't know what was going through their mind. I mean, like I said, the facts are is it is classified the way it's classified. Um, whether this is going to continue, um I mean, the family has fought hard and they're gonna continue to fight. And they believe that, you know, that she didn't do this to herself. And you're right, family sometimes doesn't want to believe that they would do that to themselves. But then we also know about the bruising. And then how do you, you know, we don't have to, you know, I think we've I think we've talked extensively about that, but the fact of the matter is is that she did have bruising on quite a bit of her body and no real answers to where those bruises came from. So if there was domestic violence going on, if there were which is that which is exactly what her family thinks, that there was she was hiding something, and then all of her depression was centered around her job.
SPEAKER_00:I know, and I think they said that there were some were some bruises in various stages of healing.
SPEAKER_01:That's right. So if you I was beat a week ago and then I'm beat next week, my bruises are gonna look different.
SPEAKER_00:I don't, I don't even, but just because somebody has a bruise doesn't mean they're beat.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, I didn't, but if they believe, if if they have any reason to believe based on where those bruises are, where were they? Um, I think some were on her leg, I think some were on her arm. I think she had one on the side near her ribs. I and I know that those are the ones that they mentioned, or at least ones that I've read about.
SPEAKER_00:But I think just some weird thing though about the medication tech can cost some breathing. They said something like that.
SPEAKER_01:Well, they weren't sure.
SPEAKER_00:More prone to bruising.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, you're more prone to bruising, I guess, like that. And you are running around with kids at school, you know, bumping anything. I mean, absolutely. I'm not saying that's how they got there. What I'm saying is they don't know how they got there. And I think it caused enough concern for people to go, where did these random bruises come from? Um, and and it should they should matter, they shouldn't just be disregarded as accidental bruises, okay? They shouldn't. I think that adds they don't do that to a person who they know's been murdered, a pert person who's been bludgeoned to death, Chris. If they have bruises all over their body, they're going to measure them. They're going to figure out.
SPEAKER_00:She had three locations that there was.
SPEAKER_01:I didn't say three locations. There was three that I know of.
SPEAKER_00:I think there were only three, and they weren't uh weren't all over her body. They just said she had some bruises.
SPEAKER_01:I hope you're sure about that, saying that on the microphone. Because I'm fairly certain that that's what they said.
SPEAKER_00:Because I want to say they showed three pictures of the bruising.
SPEAKER_01:On the documentary, yes. But if there were some other extensive ones that maybe because of an ongoing investigation that the family is doing, I can see why they don't necessarily want all of that out there. And it's a documentary, so they're not going to show all the pictures. We didn't we didn't get all the pictures of they showed all of our wounds. They didn't show, they showed a diagram and a few of the pokey wounds. I saw way more than a few.
SPEAKER_00:So I don't know. I'm just paying attention to more than that.
SPEAKER_01:We don't have the coroner's report, but um, but the way it's classified, um, we could probably get it or at least get a FOIA on the case and um, you know, find out what police really had and what what they really didn't have. Um, but the the fact is that this case is um reclassified as a suicide. The family, her family is still going on with their investigation. They do believe that she did not do this to herself. I think a lot of her friends feel probably very similar to that. Um, you know, and again, it's like hard to accept, right? Because it's kind of like when I, you know, when you think of why someone does something. Well, if you're not a sociopath or you're not suicidal, or you're not having these depressive manic episodes, which she may or may not have been. We don't know. She's on Clinazepan. I mean, I know what that's for. And she's on Ambient to sleep, which means she has a hard time like settling her brain down. So, I mean, she could have been manic. I mean, we don't know. But um, I I just wish they would have just done a better, thorough investigation. Again, he calls it in and says that she stabbed herself. That is how it was reported from the 911 operator to police, a possible suicide. And gosh, when you call in a you Know it your the words matter because if they know someone's breaking in or if there's a robbery or a burglary, I mean they they approach a scene on how it's called in and what was said. And then when he gets there, he's then repeating that to police, and um that's what they come to conclude in the 40, 45 minutes that they're on the scene. They didn't cut, you know, um, they didn't take the murder weapons, they didn't take, I don't know if they even took any blood samples. I they must have taken some DNA because they said they ran a DNA and his DNA was not on the knife. Um, and Chris, she very well could have done this to herself, but I think there is a hint possibility that she didn't based on some of these wounds. Um, but you know, it's just a very controversial case. I hope everyone will go watch the documentary, make some um assessments and decisions for yourself. I can tell you that just looking on social media. Um, a lot of people, again, don't think she would have done this because going back to the fact of what I said, why start stabbing yourself in the back and not in the chest? And then I think of play on words. I mean, I don't know. I mean, people, I'm I'm sorry, but I mean, Romeo and Juliet were the play on words. I mean, there was a there was a symbolism to the death. Okay. And and there could be symbolism to to her death, whether it was inflicted by her own hand or someone else's.
SPEAKER_00:But um it must be that alien that's hanging above your head.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, making you think I um the angels and the aliens are always looking. The uh conspiracy of the uh the well, um I I wish her family and parents the best. I'm it's very difficult to do. There's a doubt, it's a sad case.
SPEAKER_00:I think they I think they have every right to be angry. Be angry and then and and blame um and blame the police force. And I think until they have really solid evidence against him, I think, you know, yeah, you have to if he's to have his day in court, then they would see. But I mean, I think that that's the one thing we do know that the police really screwed this up. And so finding some way to hold them accountable for at least just the um, you know, it that that's a tall task because you know, even all the people looking at all the evidence, like yeah there's a very in this slim chance the police are going to ever go back and reopen this.
SPEAKER_01:Well, no, because once they classify it as a suicide, there is no there's no ongoing investigation.
SPEAKER_00:I mean that's why it's kind of a futile effort. Uh I don't know how they get any sort of um justice out of this.
SPEAKER_01:Um I don't know all of the criminal um cases. I'm sorry, not criminal cases, but um, you know, any kind of filing the parents have done against the city of Philadelphia for this.
SPEAKER_00:Like civil.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, like civil. There may be some ongoing, I'm sure there's some ongoing investigation stuff going on with with their team. Um, you know, it's hard to get past when I I remember talking about this, you know, like it's really hard to get, you know, manners of death, um uh convictions in a criminal court. It's very hard to get those overturned. It's very difficult. You have to have some pretty solid evidence for them to go through the effort of overturning and then identifying it as someone else. This could have been a total cop-out. It could have 100% been the police, and then they go out and say it to the press, which was very strange. This people of Philadelphia thought this was weird as well. Um, but because they in the ME's office completely, you know, they disagreed on the manner of death. So you do have a professional that believes that she didn't do this to herself. And I think it's we, I think we should not look past that. I I I don't want to um, this was not a thorough investigation. This isn't this wasn't determined only because of the police work. You have the Emmy's office that had classified this and said, no way, like she didn't do this to herself. Um, and then you have another group saying that she did. So, you know, you have professionals disagreeing on manner of death. And then, you know, again, how do you, you know, get past that? But go check out the documentary on Hulu, um, Ellen Greenberg, Chris. As always, thank you for joining me tonight. Thank you. In the studio, friends, have a wonderful Thanksgiving. Oh, maybe you'll hear from us before the holiday. We'll see.
SPEAKER_00:I would say you probably would.
SPEAKER_01:You would? No, yeah, that's two weeks away. Oh my gosh, I thought it was like next week. All right, time's flying. Until next time, friends, stay safe, have fun, and cheers to next time. Cheers.